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[2a00:1450:4864:20::536]) 121 by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 38308e7fff4ca-318b49b4b4asi2742171fa.0.2025.04.27.23.11.21 122 for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> 123 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); 124 Sun, 27 Apr 2025 23:11:21 -0700 (PDT) 125 Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of saintwenhao@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::536 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::536; 126 Received: by mail-ed1-x536.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e8be1c6ff8so7151081a12.1 127 for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>; Sun, 27 Apr 2025 23:11:21 -0700 (PDT) 128 X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuCYHQwMBecJbklZ1yIaX0HtUgZsvKUL7fY37gaQtxCruOCcXJLrZsGFqIoEQP 129 znGe0hLBPE0/gNVJ7FZrRGSp8Lc+4J9CaUBBRDWi2ng3EC+gaGGssJr3iFMPMNJCiHo/qCj3gJE 130 EU6v/2uv3Vxg9p44kflDGS 131 X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:13c8:b0:5ed:1d8d:c6d8 with SMTP id 132 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5f72267c079mr7872612a12.9.1745820679613; Sun, 27 Apr 2025 133 23:11:19 -0700 (PDT) 134 MIME-Version: 1.0 135 References: <hU75DurC5XToqizyA-vOKmVtmzd3uZGDKOyXuE_ogE6eQ8tPCrvX__S08fG_nrW5CjH6IUx7EPrq8KwM5KFy9ltbFBJZQCHR2ThoimRbMqU=@protonmail.com> 136 <5c13e130-aaa2-4866-be26-7498100e868b@murch.one> <7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29@murch.one> 137 <vgcVopNpWCowIGaIpVgjsCWyTMjxVKoWtRdDVnTNrM8tYPjKtC6MJ6S-2KxIYdJYgAhG8iNPig-xijwd7DtAm6tHN3T3xgIMUNUSTBYvT_A=@protonmail.com> 138 <672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn@googlegroups.com> <CADL_X_eXcmD8fEpL9Sqqwt6EfwtdjG+Aaqk+pgSBhPmaVT3gEw@mail.gmail.com> 139 In-Reply-To: <CADL_X_eXcmD8fEpL9Sqqwt6EfwtdjG+Aaqk+pgSBhPmaVT3gEw@mail.gmail.com> 140 From: Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com> 141 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2025 08:11:08 +0200 142 X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUFKSWPhoY29is-jgVXmQ-FdsTu1Welc-O09zfX-jj2s9trOt48EEuqBrv4 143 Message-ID: <CACgYNOKDFjxTuk8Szq305oNvS_tAwoCosrcR3ij4ihCuHjw78A@mail.gmail.com> 144 Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Unbreaking testnet4 145 To: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> 146 Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> 147 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000732ef50633d08d44" 148 X-Original-Sender: saintwenhao@gmail.com 149 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass 150 header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=lQA18a8y; spf=pass 151 (google.com: domain of saintwenhao@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::536 152 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=saintwenhao@gmail.com; dmarc=pass 153 (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com 154 Precedence: list 155 Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com 156 List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com> 157 X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 158 List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> 159 List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com> 160 List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev 161 List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com> 162 List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>, 163 <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe> 164 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) 165 166 --000000000000732ef50633d08d44 167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 168 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 169 170 > Demurrage might be asking a bit much in terms of deviation. 171 172 If that's the case, then why signing all blocks in signet is not "too 173 much"? Or why unlimited supply is not "too much"? All of these changes were 174 put in the same basket of "Require unanimous consent", so why one kind of 175 change is better or worse than the others? All of them deviates from the 176 mainnet, and we probably wouldn't want anything like that on the original 177 chain anyway. 178 179 > I'd think that testnets should be reset more frequently than that. 180 181 Then why don't we put any kind of reset logic into testnet5 consensus 182 rules? Because when nothing like that is present, then testnets can 183 potentially run forever. Testnet3 is becoming an altcoin, and new testnets 184 will also be, if no significant changes will be made. Signet is not traded 185 yet, mainly because of centralized mining, but there already are 186 centralized altcoin federations, so it may change in the future. 187 188 And again, the word "reset" should be replaced by "abandon", unless you 189 really want to reorganize the whole old chain of some existing testnet, by 190 producing a stronger alternative chain in testnet5, which would replace the 191 old network in a backward-compatible way, by mining everything on top of 192 the same Genesis Block, and eventually producing a bigger chainwork. 193 194 pon., 28 kwi 2025 o 00:50 Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> napisa=C5= 195 =82(a): 196 197 > 198 > 199 > On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 12:47=E2=80=AFPM Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.= 200 com> 201 > wrote: 202 > 203 >> What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 consensus rules? 204 >> 205 > In general it seems desirable for a testnet to be as close as possible to 206 > mainnet's rules. Demurrage might be asking a bit much in terms of deviati= 207 on. 208 > 209 > I'd suggest simply disabling the halving logic and making it a perpetual 210 > 50 TBTC issuance. At that rate, it would still take ~8 years or so to 211 > surpass the 21M limit and I'd think that testnets should be reset more 212 > frequently than that. 213 > 214 >> 215 >> Testnet coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both 216 >> testnet3 and testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, to make = 217 a 218 >> more stable test network. However, signing blocks was listed on wiki pag= 219 e 220 >> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes as something, that 221 >> "Require unanimous consent". And, as the history can tell us, people sti= 222 ll 223 >> wanted to test mining anyway, which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have mu= 224 ch 225 >> more chainwork than signet (and when it comes to signet, sending 226 >> signed-but-unmined blocks to the miners was never implemented, so they h= 227 ad 228 >> no chance to provide more hashing power). 229 >> 230 >> Another kind of change on the list, that would require consent, was 231 >> increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 million. But then, testin= 232 g 233 >> supply limits would be harder, and it could cause integer overflows in s= 234 ome 235 >> cases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3, testnet4, and sign= 236 et, 237 >> there was never a problem of "not enough coins for miners", so that chan= 238 ge 239 >> probably wouldn't solve any problems (and seeing it in action would take 240 >> years anyway; testnet4 is still far from the first halving, and it is 241 >> traded anyway, so that change won't fix it). 242 >> 243 >> Then, we have the third option, which was not yet tried in test networks= 244 : 245 >> demurrage. There are two main options: burning coins, or re-assigning th= 246 em 247 >> to someone else. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning would be 248 >> backward-incompatible, so it is probably easier to just implement burnin= 249 g, 250 >> and just treat all coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_RETU= 251 RN, 252 >> by simply invalidating transactions spending them on consensus level. 253 >> 254 >> Also, when it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be possibl= 255 e 256 >> to automatically remove things from the UTXO set, then it would make 257 >> Initial Blockchain Download easier, just because new nodes wouldn't need= 258 to 259 >> synchronize everything, if old coins would be automatically invalidated.= 260 In 261 >> practice, all nodes could be just running in pruned mode all the time, a= 262 nd 263 >> everything beyond the pruning point, could be simply ignored on consensu= 264 s 265 >> level (which would also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And then, = 266 if 267 >> we would keep for example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chain wo= 268 uld 269 >> never take more than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that's all= 270 we 271 >> would need to send during Initial Blockchain Download to other nodes. 272 >> 273 >> poniedzia=C5=82ek, 31 marca 2025 o 22:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot napisa= 274 =C5=82(a): 275 >> 276 >>> Good point on not having the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks 277 >>> sounds good to me. 278 >>> 279 >>> 280 >>> 281 >>> 282 >>> On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch <mu...@murch.one> wrote: 283 >>> 284 >>> > 285 >>> > 286 >>> > Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, 287 >>> 2026-01-08 288 >>> > instead. 289 >>> > 290 >>> > -Murch 291 >>> > 292 >>> > On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote: 293 >>> > 294 >>> > > Hey Antoine and everyone, 295 >>> > > 296 >>> > > What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute difficulty 297 >>> > > exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t serve it= 298 s 299 >>> intended 300 >>> > > purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins easil= 301 y 302 >>> or 303 >>> > > confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it would 304 >>> be 305 >>> > > better to not have it at all. 306 >>> > > 307 >>> > > On 2025-03-18 07:29, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development 308 >>> Mailing 309 >>> > > List wrote: 310 >>> > > 311 >>> > > > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset rule from 312 >>> > > > testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01. 313 >>> > > 314 >>> > > I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday in many= 315 places 316 >>> to 317 >>> > > avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-01 ins= 318 tead? 319 >>> > > 320 >>> > > Cheers, 321 >>> > > Murch 322 >>> > 323 >>> > 324 >>> > -- 325 >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 326 >>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. 327 >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= 328 d 329 >>> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. 330 >>> > To view this discussion visit 331 >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-25= 332 06a2410b29%40murch.one. 333 >>> 334 >>> 335 >> -- 336 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= 337 s 338 >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. 339 >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= 340 n 341 >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. 342 >> To view this discussion visit 343 >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-450= 344 8d39cfd7dn%40googlegroups.com 345 >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-45= 346 08d39cfd7dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter> 347 >> . 348 >> 349 > 350 351 --=20 352 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= 353 Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. 354 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= 355 mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. 356 To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 357 CACgYNOKDFjxTuk8Szq305oNvS_tAwoCosrcR3ij4ihCuHjw78A%40mail.gmail.com. 358 359 --000000000000732ef50633d08d44 360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" 361 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 362 363 <div dir=3D"ltr">> Demurrage might be asking a bit much in terms of devi= 364 ation.<br><br>If that's the case, then why signing all blocks in signet= 365 is not "too much"? Or why unlimited supply is not "too much= 366 "? All of these changes were put in the same basket of "Require u= 367 nanimous consent", so why one kind of change is better or worse than t= 368 he others? All of them deviates from the mainnet, and we probably wouldn= 369 9;t want anything like that on the original chain anyway.<br><br>> I'= 370 ;d think that testnets should be reset more frequently than that.<br><br>Th= 371 en why don't we put any kind of reset logic into testnet5 consensus rul= 372 es? Because when nothing like that is present, then testnets can potentiall= 373 y run forever. Testnet3 is becoming an altcoin, and new testnets will also = 374 be, if no significant changes will be made. Signet is not traded yet, mainl= 375 y because of centralized mining, but there already are centralized altcoin = 376 federations, so it may change in the future.<br><br>And again, the word &qu= 377 ot;reset" should be replaced by "abandon", unless you really= 378 want to reorganize the whole old chain of some existing testnet, by produc= 379 ing a stronger alternative chain in testnet5, which would replace the old n= 380 etwork in a backward-compatible way, by mining everything on top of the sam= 381 e Genesis Block, and eventually producing a bigger chainwork.</div><br><div= 382 class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai= 383 l_attr">pon., 28 kwi 2025 o 00:50=C2=A0Jameson Lopp <<a href=3D"mailto:j= 384 ameson.lopp@gmail.com">jameson.lopp@gmail.com</a>> napisa=C5=82(a):<br><= 385 /div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo= 386 rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di= 387 v dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla= 388 ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 12:47=E2=80=AFPM Saint Wenhao <= 389 ;<a href=3D"mailto:saintwenhao@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">saintwenhao@gma= 390 il.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m= 391 argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left= 392 :1ex">What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 consensus rules?<br></bl= 393 ockquote><div>In general it seems desirable for a testnet to be as close as= 394 possible to mainnet's rules. Demurrage might be asking a bit much in t= 395 erms of deviation.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd suggest simply disablin= 396 g the halving logic and making it a perpetual 50 TBTC issuance. At that rat= 397 e, it would still take ~8 years or so to surpass the 21M limit and I'd = 398 think that testnets should be reset more frequently than that.</div><blockq= 399 uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p= 400 x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>Testnet coins were supposed = 401 to be worthless. But it failed in both testnet3 and testnet4. In the meanwh= 402 ile, signet was introduced, to make a more stable test network. However, si= 403 gning blocks was listed on wiki page <a href=3D"https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/= 404 Prohibited_changes" target=3D"_blank">https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited= 405 _changes</a> as something, that "Require unanimous consent". And,= 406 as the history can tell us, people still wanted to test mining anyway, whi= 407 ch is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more chainwork than signet (and w= 408 hen it comes to signet, sending signed-but-unmined blocks to the miners was= 409 never implemented, so they had no chance to provide more hashing power).<b= 410 r><br>Another kind of change on the list, that would require consent, was i= 411 ncreasing the total number of coins beyond 21 million. But then, testing su= 412 pply limits would be harder, and it could cause integer overflows in some c= 413 ases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3, testnet4, and signet, = 414 there was never a problem of "not enough coins for miners", so th= 415 at change probably wouldn't solve any problems (and seeing it in action= 416 would take years anyway; testnet4 is still far from the first halving, and= 417 it is traded anyway, so that change won't fix it).<br><br>Then, we hav= 418 e the third option, which was not yet tried in test networks: demurrage. Th= 419 ere are two main options: burning coins, or re-assigning them to someone el= 420 se. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning would be backward-incompati= 421 ble, so it is probably easier to just implement burning, and just treat all= 422 coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_RETURN, by simply invalid= 423 ating transactions spending them on consensus level.<br><br>Also, when it c= 424 omes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be possible to automatically= 425 remove things from the UTXO set, then it would make Initial Blockchain Dow= 426 nload easier, just because new nodes wouldn't need to synchronize every= 427 thing, if old coins would be automatically invalidated. In practice, all no= 428 des could be just running in pruned mode all the time, and everything beyon= 429 d the pruning point, could be simply ignored on consensus level (which woul= 430 d also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And then, if we would keep for= 431 example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chain would never take more = 432 than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that's all we would need = 433 to send during Initial Blockchain Download to other nodes.<br><br><div clas= 434 s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">poniedzia=C5=82ek,= 435 31 marca 2025 o=C2=A022:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot napisa=C5=82(a):<br></= 436 div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor= 437 der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Good point on not hav= 438 ing the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks sounds good to me. 439 <br> 440 <br> 441 <br> 442 <br> 443 <br>On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch <mu...@murch.one> w= 444 rote: 445 <br> 446 <br>>=20 447 <br>>=20 448 <br>> Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, 2026= 449 -01-08 450 <br>> instead. 451 <br>>=20 452 <br>> -Murch 453 <br>>=20 454 <br>> On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote: 455 <br>>=20 456 <br>> > Hey Antoine and everyone, 457 <br>> >=20 458 <br>> > What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute diffi= 459 culty 460 <br>> > exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t se= 461 rve its intended 462 <br>> > purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins= 463 easily or 464 <br>> > confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it= 465 would be 466 <br>> > better to not have it at all. 467 <br>> >=20 468 <br>> > On 2025-03-18 07:29, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin De= 469 velopment Mailing 470 <br>> > List wrote: 471 <br>> >=20 472 <br>> > > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset r= 473 ule from 474 <br>> > > testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01. 475 <br>> >=20 476 <br>> > I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday i= 477 n many places to 478 <br>> > avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-= 479 01 instead? 480 <br>> >=20 481 <br>> > Cheers, 482 <br>> > Murch 483 <br>>=20 484 <br>>=20 485 <br>> -- 486 <br>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= 487 Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. 488 <br>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = 489 send an email to <a rel=3D"nofollow">bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com</a>. 490 <br>> To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com= 491 /d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29%40murch.one" rel= 492 =3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoinde= 493 v/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29%40murch.one</a>. 494 <br></blockquote></div> 495 496 <p></p> 497 498 -- <br> 499 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= 500 quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br> 501 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= 502 mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target= 503 =3D"_blank">bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br> 504 To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= 505 bitcoindev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_med= 506 ium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.googl= 507 e.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn%40googlegrou= 508 ps.com</a>.<br> 509 </blockquote></div></div> 510 </blockquote></div> 511 512 <p></p> 513 514 -- <br /> 515 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= 516 quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br /> 517 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= 518 mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind= 519 ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br /> 520 To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= 521 bitcoindev/CACgYNOKDFjxTuk8Szq305oNvS_tAwoCosrcR3ij4ihCuHjw78A%40mail.gmail= 522 .com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/ms= 523 gid/bitcoindev/CACgYNOKDFjxTuk8Szq305oNvS_tAwoCosrcR3ij4ihCuHjw78A%40mail.g= 524 mail.com</a>.<br /> 525 526 --000000000000732ef50633d08d44-- 527